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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 20 March 2008 01:12 pm |
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I have recently crossed swords with a member on this site who has lost a considerable amount of weight on the Atkins Diet.
My objections to these posts are;
They completely contradict Peters message of "Don't go on diets they eventually fail and must end" meaning you must then revert to another way of eating.
Every tutorial talks about healthy eating and fruits and vegetables lean meats fish etc.
Atkins and this members daily diet include burgers fries chips etc etc etc.
What is the point of posting that message on this site contradicting this sites message.
I know I could eat that way and lose and $XZ% the long term health effects.
I know from private and public messages that many supporters of this site feel the same way as me
I am not suggesting we follow the diets of neolithic man. One thing for sure is there would be no obesity epedemic.
Imagine the look on neolithic mans face if you offered him slimfast for breakfast!!!!
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 20 March 2008 01:37 pm |
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My personal experience with Atkins (now some 4 years ago) is that it was a stepping stone in my journey to better nutrition. By reading the Atkins book and articles on the Atkins website I improved my nutrition as compared to the junk I was eating beforehand.
Of course I don't eat that way anymore, but who knows what would have happened to me if Atkins was not part of my journey, my education in nutrition.
EDIT: The tutorial includes http://www.caloriesperhour.com/tutorial_diet_carb.php
Last edited on 20 March 2008 01:54 pm by Nir
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suenos
Moderator
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Posted: 20 March 2008 04:44 pm |
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| My person experience with following the Atkins Plan: after every unconventional (my so-called pop-corn diet) and conventional weight loss plan (including one set up by a nutritionist) resulted in weight loss but failed to either produce any sustainable results (I kept gaining the weight back along with more weight on top, plus more disordered eating) I gave Atkins (not my version of it, but the way it was meant to be followed) a go for about six-eight weeks....it proved to be the stepping stone I needed to realize that life was possible (and enjoyable) without refined foods, sugar laden treats and binge eating.......I haven't followed the Atkins plan in more than two (close to three) years, but I can't dismiss it because it turned out to be the first step on a path of not only weight loss (which I've sustained), but "mindful" eating where I'm content to eat to nourish my body rather than satisfy the random cravings of my taste buds...
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 22 March 2008 07:21 pm |
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"EAT TO LIVE" By Dr J Furhman
page 92
"Unfortunately some of the most heavily promoted and best selling books are also among the most dangerous"
page 95
" The Atkins diet, along with other similar plans, is virtually the opposite of the one dictated by our primate heritage"
Page 97
"once you stop the diet, you'll gain all the weight back and more; if you stay on the diet, you risk premature death.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 22 March 2008 07:38 pm |
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artistjohn wrote: Atkins and this members daily diet include burgers fries chips etc etc etc.
Actually why do we think that this is compliant with Atkins?
I don't believe potatos are recommended on Atkins (unless you know different)
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 22 March 2008 08:11 pm |
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I was directly referring to the member in question who lists burgers fries dorritos (chips american) and says she is on Atkins.
A random visitor would I think, observe you as a defender of Atkins. How can this be, as a bffm and etl person. Books which you you directly promote and I have bought!! and read.
Last edited on 22 March 2008 08:15 pm by artistjohn
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 22 March 2008 09:06 pm |
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If you have read BFFM and ETL then you have probably noticed that there is a lot of agreement between them.
And you have also noticed that there is a lot of disagreement, too.
Anyhow a few months ago I re-read "Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution" to see how I felt about it now. Amongst the rubbish I was able to pick a few positive messages. At several places in the book Atkins is very enthusiastic about exercise. Also the message about vegetables is very positive. The starting point, in the most restrictive phase, has 3 cups of vegetables: when translated to weights, this works out as more than the "5-a-day" which the majority of UK residents fail to adhere to. So unhealthy as Atkins is, adherence to Atkins would represent a positive step for many (even most) people.
Similiarly for BFFM: Tom's insistance that you eat animal-derived protein (whether vegeterian or meat/fish) at every one of the 6 meals hardly sits well with Dr Fuhrman's chapter on protein, but you cannot deny that BFFM will be a step in the right direction for the majority of peope who will encounter it.
Have you read any of the FL4I threads, elsewhere on the forums? They don't use the name Atkins but there are many similarities, lots of animal products, many particularly high in saturated, and the segregation of fruits and vegetables into their own days seems to make the followers of the diet, most of whom are not keen on them, to continue to despise them. How do you feel about the way that this forum supports the FL4I people on their journeys?
On the ETL vs BFFM, I'm curious about how you've resolved the differences. I am presently more influenced by ETL.
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EJ33
New Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:27 am |
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I haven't been on the Atkins diet for at least 25 years. My typical diet routine was for about 50 days. I would guess I did the Atkins diet about 10 times and would see about a 30 pound weighloss (that's what the scale said) on each diet.
My goal was to lose weight as quickly as possible then the plan was to try to eat in a more normal way once I reached my goal weight. But I was never successful at eating in a normal way. So I became a yo-yo dieter.
The great thing about the Atkins diet is you count carbohydrates. With so many foods having 0 carbohydrates it is so easy to keep track. It's so much easier than counting every calorie you consume. Plus when you limit the foods you can eat you end up eating a lot fewer calories and do lose quite a bit of weight. It was also very easy to stay on the Atkins diet because with the rapid weightloss I was on a emotional high.
On the Atkins diet I would typically eat the same foods everyday. My favorite Atkins meal was fried bacon then frying 4 eggs in the bacon fat. It was a fantastic meal on a diet. Today, people would frown on having 20+ eggs yolks a week but in those days it seemed quite healthy. 25 years ago cholesterol and heart healthy eating was not part of the culture.
I would say the good thing about going on the Atkins diet or some other fad diet is that it gave me a way to keep my weight in check. Without these 10 diets I probably would have ended up with a BMI well over 30. Instead these diets kept me in the 24-30 BMI range.
If someone uses the Atkins diet to quickly lower their weight then follows the guidelines on the "CaloriesPerHour" web site it might be a path to success.
My two cents...
Last edited on 23 March 2008 03:33 pm by EJ33
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Dazed1
New Member
| Joined: | 12 August 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 75 |
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Posted: 23 March 2008 02:15 pm |
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| I lost weight on Atkins the 2 times I tried it, but each time at 6 weeks I got heart palpatations that went away when I quit the diet. This was enough of a warning for me. Other people may be able to tolerate Atkins without this complication.
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 02:52 pm |
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artistjohn wrote: A random visitor would I think, observe you as a defender of Atkins.
I've thought some more about this. Just for fun I am currently working on a short paragraph to describe what I do:
My food plan, which I have complied with for over a year, involves keeping a record of everything I consume (except for spices and low-calorie drinks), weighing my portions and eating an exact number of calories (currently 1900 per day). I consider vegetables, beans, fruits, nuts and seeds to be healthy foods and aim to get at least 90% of my calories (currently 1710 calories) from them. All other sources of calories (any processed foods, eggs, dairy, meat, fish, shellfish, grains - whole or refined, oils, sugars and alcohol) can make up no more than 10% (currently 190) of my calories. On ocassion those foods make up more than 10% of my calories - I consider this slippy abstinence rather than a break - so long as my overall calories are on target - but I tend to recoil back to compliance whenever this occurs. I have other guidelines, such as eating a minimum of 900g of vegetables every day. I don't follow a rule about how many meals to have.
If you carefully read the paragraph above (and crucially, if you have been paying close attention when you have read Dr Atkin's book - assuming you took the trouble to do so) then you will recall that it is possible to eat a vegeterian or vegan version of atkins by focusing on green vegetables, olives, avocados, nuts and seeds, and that my food plan does not specify eating "low fat" so if I wanted to I could certainly eat in a "low carb" way that is compliant with "Atkins". It won't be compatible with the 'Induction' phase, but it will certainly fit within the 'ongoing weight loss' phase.
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Doug
New Member
| Joined: | 9 September 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 44 |
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Posted: 23 March 2008 03:32 pm |
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I have seen a lot a people quickly drop 10 to 15 pounds on Atkins. And I have seen a few people lose a lot of weight and keep it off on Atkins too.
My theory on the quick initial drop is that since a pound of glucose and the associated water only has 450 Calories in it most of the quick initial loss is due to people using the glucose and not being able to quickly replenish it since they are not eating a lot of simple carbohydrates. This weight would return quickly when they do eat some sugary food which is consistent with what I have seen.
The people that do lose weight and keep it off on Atkins do so because they are eating fewer calories. Hunger seems to be different for everyone. I need the physical bulk of things like vegetables to feel like I ate something but for some people a small amount of fatty food seems to make them feel full. My stepmother can eat a few slices of bacon and feel full for hours. I would need to eat the whole slab to get that effect. Most snack items like chips and sugary treats are off limits on Atkins which tends to keep the calorie intake down too.
As others have mentioned having to prepare food instead of just eating it used to be a part of Atkins. When the wide variety of packaged low carb food became available Atkins seemed to become less effective. Having to think about and prepare food makes stuffing a few hundred calories into your mouth less likely.
Atkins is not for me but it works for some people. They would be better off if they were at a healthy weight and ate more nutritious, less fatty food. But if the choice is being 50 pounds overweight or being at a healthy weight on Atkins I suspect that the huge health risks of being severely overweight are much greater than the risks of eating a high protein (and usually high fat) diet while maintaining a healthy weight.
Last edited on 23 March 2008 04:52 pm by Doug
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 03:32 pm |
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If you had read my first post "assuming you took the trouble to do so" I was criticizing the post of a member. Of which I include a recent day below. I will concede the approx 8 - 10 grapes and some cashews! My point again being is the type of diet the founder of this site intended its readers to follow?
What are your thoughts on the nutritional values listed?
Yesterday I ate:
BK-doritos 130
Hersheys 230
sn-mozza 80
Ln-SF 190
sn-mozza 80
grapes 40
small bit of cake 30
DN-2 mac and cheese bowls 440
sn-mozza 80
mozza 80
after 300 calories burned in exercise=1220
Today-
BK-SF 190
onion rings 80
ds 5
sn-cashews 330
mint 20
mint 30
LN-SF 190
DN-wing 250
biscuit 240
fries 310
ketchup 15
ds 5
exercise burned 250
total=1415
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 04:06 pm |
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artistjohn wrote: My point again being is the type of diet the founder of this site intended its readers to follow?
Ok, as you are repeating yourself, then let us address your point directly. Let me ask you: can you please point me in the direction of where website founder Peter 'intends his readers to follow a particular diet'?
I guess I want you to consider that this is all 'in your head', as it were.
Let me give you another example: Peter has developed calorie-counting calculators for this site. That does not mean that he counts calories. In fact, he doesn't.
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suenos
Moderator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 04:49 pm |
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artistjohn wrote: I was criticizing the post of a member. Of which I include a recent day below. I will concede the approx 8 - 10 grapes and some cashews!........What are your thoughts on the nutritional values listed?
Yesterday I ate:
I'm sorry but I don't think it's up to us to criticize the food choices made by fellow members and then post a page from their individual diaries to be analyzed for it's nutritional value. To me that's on the opposite side of the coin from offering support, advice and encouragement.
I'm sure that all of us have had days (if not weeks or months) when our food/exercise choices have not been exactly "ideal" by anyone's particular, subjective "healthy eating standards"...and over the years I've seen dozens of members who simply stopped posting....and later returned to the forum saying they were too embarrassed to post when they hadn't been doing "well", just IMO, everyone eventually has to reach their own conclusions about what/when/how much they need to eat to achieve/maintain their individual version of a healthy body/lifestyle...we might not always agree, and can point out alternative methods, but should not foster a climate where someone only feels comfortable posting thier food intake in their diary if it meets our standards of a healthy lifestyle.
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 05:07 pm |
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You must remember I'm bored and ill and got nothing better to do
Diet and Weight Loss Tutorial
"A low calorie diet can be the simplest form of dieting, nothing more than reducing the number of calories you consume. You could diet on cheesecake, and lose weight! But beware the pitfalls.
A diet based on simply eating smaller amounts of the same highly processed, calorie-rich foods typically results in hunger, poor nutrition, and only temporary weight loss. Eating tiny portions of concentrated, processed calories does not satisfy our hunger. We go off our diets and regain the weight we lost. When we do this again and again, it is harmful to both our health and our self-esteem.
Conversely, by eating foods that are higher in nutrients and fiber and lower in calories, we become satisfied eating fewer calories. We can lose weight even though we are eating more food."
Last edited on 23 March 2008 05:08 pm by artistjohn
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clarinetgurl
Moderator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 05:11 pm |
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My dad di atkins for a while. it worked pretty well while he was on it, he lost quite a bit of weight, but it just wasn;t something he could keep doing..
Everyone's allowed to follow whatever "diet" they want here. I think Peter has tried to explain what he feels, based on experience, is the best, most effective way, but I think even that is open to interpretation (in fact, we have had debates in this very forum about Peter's methods and ideas.
Different things will work for different people...
CG
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 08:20 pm |
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For a few months I left my Overeaters Anonymous because I was made to feel uncomfortable. You see, another member made me feel I had no right to be there if I was not taking all the steps. I came back and I stand my ground when I need to. You see, in Overeaters Anonymous there is something called "Tradition 3", the only requirement for membership is a desire to abstain from compulsive over-eating, and the steps are not prescribed - they are just a suggested way to get to recovery.
Do you think the person who drove me away from OA was helping me?
Perhaps there is an analogy here.
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:09 pm |
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Are you trying to drive me away. Sure sounds like it
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:15 pm |
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| To be clear, it looks like you are trying to drive some other member away.
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clarinetgurl
Moderator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:16 pm |
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I think he is just trying to dispel your idea that Peter's way is the only right way, and that condemning this one member's post is not going to help them on their way to healthy-ness...
CG
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EJ33
New Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:27 pm |
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People on this website share their experiences following different diet plans and using different diet products.
"Different Strokes for Different People" is very consistent with this website. There is no diet plan or diet approach that works for everyone. That's why there are over 400 diet plans out there.
People are encouraged to post anything about diets and weight loss and in many cases is very different than the approach in the "Tutorial". That doesn't make it wrong or inappropriate it's just additional information for the person who reads the post to consider.
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 23 March 2008 09:32 pm |
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Just to clarify how this started I posted a perfectly polite message in the members diary and was roundly abused as you know and very well supported by other members.
It is now apparent that the senior heirarchy of this site have joined together.
I wish you all well and Goodbye.
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clarinetgurl
Moderator
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Posted: 23 March 2008 10:23 pm |
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Artisitjohn, I hope you will still check back with this.
I hope you just mean good bye to this thread.
It has nothing to do with a CPH hierarchy. You have a perfect right to be against the Atkins diet...you just...can't down another member who wants to do the Atkins diet.
I saw your post in her diary, and yes it was very polite, and I think she could have been nicer about pointing out that she doesn't want advice.
I'm on everyone's side; I think we all are.
CG
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Peter
Founder, caloriesperhour.com
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Posted: 23 March 2008 11:23 pm |
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Hello,
Nir called this topic to my attention, and I am writing this to anyone that might be "watching" it. Since artistjohn has bid us farewell, I will refer to him in absence.
First off, if this topic were purely on the topic of criticising another member's actions, I would delete it. But it's become more of a discussion of Atkins and how these forums work, so I'm leaving it and moving it to the Other Diets forum.
Maybe it should still be deleted, but I wanted to reply to you all first.
First I need to make a separation between the Tutorial and the forums. In writing the Tutorial, I wrote about what I believe to be a common sense approach to healthy diet and exercise, resulting in weight loss for overweight people. But it's all just my opinion.
(Actually very little of it's original, but I chose from all that's out there what I believe to be correct.)
One of the complaints often directed at cph was that it didn't have a diet plan a person could follow. That's partly because I didn't have the education to create one, and partly because I wanted my website to support all people who were trying to improve themselves.
I understand what artistjohn is saying about Atkins, and very much agree that it's an unhealthy diet with short term results at best. (If you stay on it long-term, I think you'll suffer long-term health problems.)
However, where do you draw the line? We have a VERY active following of the Fat Loss 4 Idiots diet, and I don't see any reason to pay a penny to diet. Except to buy healthy food. But FL4I has helped a lot of people, and from posting in the forum many of them have learned much more about diet and nutrition than the FL4I program alone would have taught them.
Where have I drawn the line? Over the years we have had bulimics, anorexics, and even suicidal people post in defense of their practices. To be clear, the bulimics and anorexics were promoting their diseases, and the suicidal people wanted to discuss suicide as a possible future means to escape their problems.
I drew a line by saying that I would only allow people to post that were trying to improve their health, and I guess that's where I would draw the line today.
I understand artistjohn's concern that by allowing someone to post about an unhealthy practice it would appear to sanction it, and that others reading the posts might be encouraged to follow. But I have never seen anyone post about an unhealthy practice that didn't get replies suggesting that it was unhealthy, and what might be better.
Lastly, I think that if you tell someone they can't post here if they are following this or that diet plan, they will leave. And we will have then lost the opportunity to teach them more healthy ways.
Just my two cents... or maybe 10.
Peter
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 2 April 2008 09:42 pm |
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Thankyou for Peter. I have been here all the time and reading with interest.
This whole topic started when I did a perfectly polite post (as mentioned above) and was roundly abused and told to mind my own buisiness. That is when I felt I should defend myself and this sites views on healthy eating, therfore quoting the tutorials.
I really couldn't give a monkeys X&$& about Atkins or cabbage soup or any other diet plan. I am a keen healthy eater and support this site and your original message 100%.
I also think NIR's post were overly aggresive against me. When I was not the original aggresor. He felt he was driven from OA, how does he think his posts made me feel.
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artistjohn
Senior Member
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Posted: 6 April 2008 09:20 am |
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artistjohn wrote: Natural foods are nutritious and contain much of what is good for us, including vitamins and minerals, fiber, the cancer-fighting antioxidants found in fruits and vegetables, and the sustained energy provided by whole grains and complex carbohydrates. They reduce our risk of heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
Above is quote from tutorials
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