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loungebob
New Member
| Joined: | 26 April 2008 |
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| Posts: | 9 |
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Posted: 26 April 2008 07:48 pm |
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I wasn't really sure where to put this, please feel free to move it to the right place if ever.
I started off at around 120kg and 33.6% BF at 182cm about 9 months ago. I'm down to 88kg and 17% BF (still 182cm ;-)) using tom's btfm - which I think is just brilliant on so many levels.
The last couple of weeks the progress is gruesomely slow and every now and then I even gain weight - while BF is still slightly decreasing, which is good but I want to get to around 82kg and ~10% BF before starting to bulk up. I think this is a classic sign of the body having adapted to my program and therefore plateauing.
My calculated BMR from the tools on this site is 1949, the RMR 1848kcal. I used the Mifflin formula to calculate mine a while back when I started the program and multiplied it by 1.375 and got 2546kcal.
I do cardio on an empty stomach when I get up, around 10km running and 2 different gadgets tell me, it's around 650kcal. I added this and got 3196kcal daily.
I do weights 4x a week, dont factor it in though since it's nothing too heavy and only about 30min per session.
I was on around 2000kcal caloric intake per day for the last 3 months which gives me around 1200 minus-calories per day (equals ~20% of RMR plus the cardio) divided by 6 meals a day.
This worked out okay until - as mentioned above - it slowed drastically and plateaued lately.
My questions are these:
- do I need to eat significantly more and if yes, for how long?
- should I go for the ziggzagg method (3 days low, 1 day adjusted RMR level), and if so, how low can I go on the low days?
- should I keep the caloric values and just split my training into 2 cardio sessions to get out of this plateau?
- how in the name of everything that's good can I even gain weight while having a consistant caloric deficit? 7000 minus calories a week should equal minus 1kg of bodyfat per week, in theory. since I gain LBM, it can't mean my metabolism has slowed down, it would store fat then, wouldnt it?
All data is derived from my tanita scale.
Oh, btw, when I use the activity calculator on this site to calculate my daily caloric use I get to 3267. this seems to correlate with the above.
Last edited on 26 April 2008 07:51 pm by loungebob
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Tratra
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 26 April 2008 10:20 pm |
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| Ok, if I read correctly, you've been consistently intaking 2000 cal/day? If that's the case, definitely try the zig zag...every forth day eat at maintenance level. As for how low you can go on the other days, no lower than your unadjusted RMR. Your body just got used to eating at that level, and you need to switch it up. You could also try increasing 100-200 calories per day and see if that helps. As for the slight weight gain, it's probably just muscle-since your body fat is still decreasing than it's certainly not fat!
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 27 April 2008 01:39 pm |
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It looks like you might be counting your exercise twice. The 1.375 factor already includes some exercise (specifically, (1.375-1.2)x1848=323 additional calories - remembering that you already burn 92 calories per hour when you do nothing in particular, that could be you burning 415 calories in one hour)
I guess I could be wrong and you are really buring 1200 calories a day with exercise, but if that is the case you have issues with cutting calorie too low
That said, if you are eating 2000 calories I would expect you to still be losing about 1lb per week
The most radical Tom goes in his calorie-cycling is 25-30% deficit relative to maintenance on the low days, that takes you down to around 1800. If you read one of Lyle McDonald's books he goes more agressive, suggesting you could risk going as low as half of your maintenance calories (so around 1300) during the low days (but Lyle's rotation isn't 3-1, it has as many high days as it has low days)
I go along with Tratra's interpretation, weight gain could be (welcome) muscle gain.
If you want to do a 're-feed' you could take a one week diet-break eating at your maintenance level (say 2500)
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loungebob
New Member
| Joined: | 26 April 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 9 |
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Posted: 27 April 2008 02:52 pm |
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thanks for the reply guys. as usual, I think my problem is with numbers and logic. so let me lay this out for you and if you find time you could comment on it.
according to this site's calculator my numbers are:
unadjusted RMR: 1848kcal
adjusted RMR: 2541kcal (I chose 1.375 mf)*
adjusted RMR plus cardio: 3200kcal
activity calculator: 3135kcal
Before I start cycling anything I would love to get my numbers straight.
If I would use the unadjusted RMR and add cardio I'd get ~2500kcal, which is around 650kcal under the estimation I get when using the activity calculator to include all daily activies.
Using my logic at the bottom of this message however, I would arrive at the same number as the activity calculator does.
Do I use the 3100-3200 as my maintenance level or do I go for the 2500kcal?
As for low days, if I understood you guys correctly - I should aim for around 1800-1900kcal?
thanks
*instead of using sedentary and just adding the exercises individually - which I think does not reflect my caloric needs because of the generally hightened metabolism tru 5x a week strenous cardio - I chose the lightly active multiplier and added the exercises on top of this. while using the activity calculator on this site I found it correlates more closely with real life experiences.
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Tratra
Distinguished Member
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Posted: 27 April 2008 04:06 pm |
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| The numbers can be confusing, and not everyone's body works as scientifically as it should. That being said, I would try doing three days at around 1850-1900, and then on the fourth day eat around 2800-3000. That should kick things into gear after a few weeks!
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 28 April 2008 06:17 am |
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I still question you using a 1.375 multiplier and then adding exercise calories on top.
Most people use the 1.2 multiplier (for sedentary) and then add their exercise calories on top
OR
They just use 1.375 (or 1.55) as a multiplier appropriate to represent the sum total of their activities.
As for getting the number to agree with what you got by using 24-hour activity calculator, it is worth mentioning that it has come up too high for many people.
Ultimately the thing that is most true is what works. A useful experiment is to eat at what you think is maintenance level and see if you gain. I think if you eat 3000 calories per day you will gain. You think you will maintain. Only one way to find out for sure and the side benefit is that whilst you are finding out you are taking a diet break an opportunity to reverse metabolic adaptation.
(I am slightly thrown off course but this is essentially what I was doing a little while ago, trying to figure out my maintenance through trial and error)
For the cycling scheme, I would go for something like (1850,1850,1850,2500)
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loungebob
New Member
| Joined: | 26 April 2008 |
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| Posts: | 9 |
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Posted: 28 April 2008 01:11 pm |
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hmm....took the weekend to read up again on tom's btfm and do some more research, and correct an error in my formula (gave me 300kcal/day too many).
I think you're right, my total daily caloric needs were too high. the 3220kcal I got using this site's acitivity calculator were put into perspective when I researched every single activity using multiple sources and getting a more reasonable median.
especially office work and watching tv were highly overestimated by this site's calculator.
using other sources I arrived at around 2650kcal effective daily requirements.
I think I'm going for 1950, 1950, 1950, 2600 for a start.
just not sure if I should do 3 low and 2 high, then repeat or leave it with one high. mentally, 2 high days would be easier......
also, the only thing unclear now to me is, tom says to go 20-30% below your TDEE on low days and be on maintenance on high days. using the above rythm requires me to do cardio every day. what about days where I dont do any cardio? do I recalculate the low or high caloric intake for those days or leave it as is?
if I leave it as is, it would effectively make a low day on a non cardio day almost a maintenance day (300kcal minus) and leave a high day on non cardio with about 400kcal above maintenance (in the plus).
if I adapt, it would make a low day go as low as 1600kcal (below my RMR of 1850) and a high day would be only about 400kcal above RMR.
Last edited on 28 April 2008 01:12 pm by loungebob
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loungebob
New Member
| Joined: | 26 April 2008 |
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| Posts: | 9 |
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Posted: 28 April 2008 01:20 pm |
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sorry, re-read it and figured, numbers are easier to understand than words.
RMR: 1849
adjusted RMR: 2220 (1.2x)
TDEE cardio: 2870 (650 cardio)
TDEE non-c: 2220 (=adjusted RMR)
low day: 1950 (TDEE cardio minus ~30%)
high day: 2600 (TDEE cardio minus ~10%)
low day non cardio: 1600 (TDEE non-c minus ~30%) = below RMR
high day non cardio: 2200
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Nir
Senior Administrator
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Posted: 28 April 2008 04:24 pm |
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I can see the problem.
The problem is caused by you having different TDEE on different days.
Tom suggests picking an activity factor. The factor is based on your exercise. It provides an amount of calories you can eat uniformly throghout the week.
How many days a week do you do cardio?
Of course as I said above, if you go by Lyle McDonald's approach you would have to go below your unadjusted RMR anyhow. (I'm not sure how I feel about this)
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loungebob
New Member
| Joined: | 26 April 2008 |
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| Posts: | 9 |
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Posted: 28 April 2008 04:51 pm |
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hmm...I must have missed that activity factor thing in tom's ebook.
anyway, 5-6x a week cardio is the usual. 5x is my minimum for now.
I don't think I want to go as low as 1600 for now. I might aim for 1750-1800 on low no cardio days.
maybe I should just do cardio 7x a week until I reach my BF goal. but I dont wanaaaa
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